The Powerful Psychology of The Shawshank Redemption – with Justin Varughese – Transcript

00:00 – Feeling Trapped in a Life You Didn’t Choose 

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Brent: Have you ever felt stuck inside a life you didn’t plan? Or trapped inside choices that you can’t undo? That claustrophobic feeling where even hope feels dangerous? What if the prison isn’t actually your circumstances, but the belief that nothing can change? That’s what The Shawshank Redemption is really about, and why it still speaks so powerfully today. In this episode, I’m joined by Justin Varughese as we walk through what this film teaches us about locus of control, hope versus survival, and quiet ways you can reclaim your freedom even without escaping your situation. I’m Brent Diggs, and this is The Full Mental Bracket, where science and storytelling meet to help you level up and tell a better story with your life.

Good time period, Bracketeers. We’re coming at you with another episode. Joining me today in the stunt host chair is Justin Varughese.

Justin: All right. Good to be here.

Brent: Justin Varughese is a film fan. He is a storyteller, a former attorney, a current minister. You’re a man with a lot of hats.

Justin: Yep. Well, I’ve worn a few hats, no hair to put them on, but yes, I’ve worn a few hats.

Brent: So we’re coming at you today with an episode about the Shawshank Redemption, a movie made from the Stephen King story. It’s a great movie, although I didn’t think so the first time I watched it. But you, you apparently have been loving this movie for a while. Tell me why you love it.

Justin: I have, man. I would say from the first time I saw it, I had a very different reaction. I loved it from the very first time. And I was much younger because the movie’s been around for a while. The book’s been around even longer. Yeah. There is just such a depth to the characters, such a depth to the many different storylines that take place throughout the entire film and the book. I haven’t read the book. I’ve only seen the film. though I’m feeling inspired to read the book in light of the conversation we’ve been having around this already. So yeah.

Brent: Me too. I have not yet read the book. Only saw the movie. I saw the movie a long time ago too. And I just, I heard everyone saying how hopeful, you know, for the longest time, I really had no use for inspirational movies. If it’s an inspirational or based on a true story, I would just like skip. I want sci-fi, I want fantasy. My life has already has enough struggle. I don’t need to hear about other people’s struggles. But I sat down and rewatched this movie, you know, for this podcast, and I realized why it was a great story. And I realized why I struggled with it so much.

Brent: We’ll cover it better later in the episode. But honestly, this movie, at least to me, really comes down to the locus of control. Now, we have a whole other episode, probably live by now, about the locus of control. But it’s just about whether you feel that your efforts affect the outcomes of your life or whether you’re just trapped in your life and everyone else controls you. And when I first saw this movie, I felt very trapped in my life. And I’m like, I already feel like I’m in prison. Why would I love this movie? And now that I watch it and I see this whole kind of, kind of Frankel kind of like, I have this freedom inside the institution that you can’t take from me at an older age and hopefully a little more maturity. I’m like, oh, I like this story now. I like this a lot.

Justin: Yeah, yeah. I mean, man, thinking through the way this story unfolds, our understanding of who is really in control of our future and our destiny, whether it is us or it is someone else, or maybe a little bit of both, is really unpacked through this film in a really profound way. It’s part of what I love about it.

Brent: Yeah, I mean, we’ve mentioned on the show before, I spent six years in the Marine Corps. Probably when I watched this movie, I was feeling very controlled. I was told where to live and where to go to work and you couldn’t quit. I had joined the Marine Corps to get away from a controlling family. I had this whole sense of penitentiary in my whole life. And I was like, I am not excited about this movie at all. I’m like, I just, I need some freedom. But that’s what this movie is actually about.

Justin: Hundred percent.

Brent: I wasn’t ready for it.

Justin: Yeah, man and that relationship between what our future holds who’s in control and then the ideas of hope, and purpose which there’s even a lot of overlap in between your military experience and the environments that the characters in this film find themselves in.

Brent: Being institutionalized.

Justin: But those elements of hope and purpose, I think, run a little bit differently, even in those two environments, and I think really are just profound in the way they unfold in the story.

Brent: So let’s go through our Hero’s Journey framework for this story. We cover that a lot. We have specific episodes on each of these pieces. But a good way to apply and break down a story and figure out the good wisdom for us is to go through this framework. So, you know, we have the being a protagonist, you know, the shift in the story, answering the call, finding your tribe, facing adversity, using the adversity to transform, and then building a legacy. It’s clear that the protagonist is Andy, Andy Dufresne. Andy Dufresne is described as a force of geology, just time and pressure. And in the show, we like to talk about having the protagonist mindset, which is the protagonist is not always the smartest and strongest and fastest, but the most persistent, the one that continues to get up and have a growth mindset. even after they’re knocked down, they get up. Frodo has the shortest legs of anyone in the party, but he’s the one that can’t be corrupted by the ring. So the protagonist, unlikely protagonist, is a key to a great story and a key to a great life, because he comes around like, oh, I’m the wrong guy for this adventure. It’s like, are you? Because it’s knocking on your door.

Justin: Yeah, I love that. And a protagonist, a good protagonist, has complexity to their own story, which Andy Dufresne very much does, and has his own journey even as the protagonist in our story, which is what makes, I think, his character so rich.

Brent: Now, Andy, he faces a shift. It’s a very obvious shift. He goes from being a fairly rich and comfortable guy and he goes to prison. Now in prison, they really don’t pull any punches there. I mean, they holler at him, they come in caged, they bus him in. They’re locked up, their hands and ankles all chained. They get stripped naked and hosed and put in a cage. And at every moment they’re being treated like animals rather than human beings.

Justin: Particularly painful for Andy having been convicted of a crime he didn’t commit.

Brent: Correct.

Justin: Which is an important part, I think, of his own internal struggle.

Brent: Yes. And that will go back. I’ll just take this moment now. So, that’s another example of locus of control. They have a scene where they all like, well, everyone here is innocent, Andy, how can you say that you’re innocent? Like, yeah, my lawyer screwed me. Yeah, this is… Everyone had an excuse. There was some external force that was forcing them to be in jail. But really, they were all criminals. They put themselves in jail. Andy was the only one who was innocent, but it was a perfect example of that.

Justin: It’s that funny line that makes its way throughout the movie. Everyone in here is innocent.

Brent: Everyone in here is innocent.

Justin: That’s what they say, and they all start laughing. The irony being, Andy actually was innocent, but yet he’s pulled in with that narrative, so yeah, it’s there’s there’s pain that he carries also the crime that he was wrongly convicted of was very personal, right? Pain surrounding that that he brings in with him.

Brent: He’s like, all right, so he’s convicted as a murderer for killing his wife but he didn’t kill his wife even though his wife was cheating on him and this whole thing and it was a big trial he lost his life and he’s lost his reputation and lost everything. He was betrayed and incriminated and thrown in jail and none of it was fair.

Justin: Carrying the pain of grief, betrayal into being wrongly convicted. I mean, it’s heavy.

Brent: And if ever there was a point for someone to be justified in just curling up and letting life pass them by, this would be this guy.

Justin: Hundred percent.

Brent: He’s like, I’m minding my own business and life just screwed me over.

Justin: Yep. Talk about a reason to become hopeless.

Brent: Yes.

Justin: Which is what makes the underlying theme of this story so powerful.

Brent: So we talk, you know, the prison being the shift, the point of the shift is that something in your life changes and the old rules don’t work anymore. You have, you built up all these tools, you built up all this mentality, you built up this whole routine and none of it works anymore. Now being a banker or whatever he did, His rules weren’t going to work anymore. I had to learn a whole bunch of new rules in a hurry. There was mean guards and just horrible conditions. And he had to quickly assimilate and learn new skills. His story had shifted. All our stories shift. We think we’re doing good. We think we got it under control. Wake up one day and something’s different. You don’t, you lost your job. Doctor has some sobering news. Kids are not doing what you would hope that they would do. They’re like, Hey, this story just shifted. I thought we were in the happy middle. And here we are at the beginning.

Justin: Yeah. Yeah, I think the word loss there that you used is probably key for what he experienced. Loss of control over being able to manage everything in his life. And all of a sudden, all of that stripped.

Brent: And this is a lot like, you know, like Frankel wrote and experienced in Man’s Search for Meaning, you know, because he went into the Holocaust, he went into the The concentration camp. And he had to trust, he had to learn, every freedom was taken from him, except for the freedom to choose his attitude. And then we see that illustrated with Andy, as he goes through all the same stuff, is that he’s lost almost all his freedoms, but they can’t take his hope away from him. He refuses to surrender it.

Justin: And I know we’re going to talk about this as the episode goes on, but how disorienting it is to go from a place of light where he felt like he could control everything around him to a place of profound darkness. So completely disoriented, can’t see what’s two feet in front of him to be able to much less control it.

Brent: That’s true.

Justin: Yeah.

Brent: Now, later in the movie, after, and by the way, if you haven’t noticed, we’re spoiling the heck out of this movie. If you haven’t watched it, do watch it, because we’re gonna talk about all of the details. And if you watch this first, you’re never gonna see it right again.

Justin: Oh, yes, add to that. The ending is tremendous. I would rather you see it than us just ruin it for you. So if you haven’t seen this film, go watch it and then come back.

Narrator: This is Full Mental Bracket. – 10:26

Brent: So, you know, towards the end of the movie, after Red is released, you know, he talks about it was the first time in his life he didn’t have to ask permission to go to the bathroom, first time in 50 years. And that’s the thing, it’s like, for people who, I’ll say this, for those of you who have never been in prison, I’ve never been in prison, but I was in Marine Corps bootcamp, which is very prison-like, and you do have to ask permission to go to the bathroom, you’re told when to eat, you’re told what to eat, you’re told when to sleep, everything’s in a hurry, you have no choices. I mean, it was like, it was a lot like the prison scene. You come in on a bus, as soon as you’re off the bus, these guys are yelling at you, trying to make you understand the new chain of command, the new hierarchy. We were intentionally sleep deprived for 24 hours. And it was, if it sounds a lot like a cult, You’ll have to take that up with the Department of Defense, because it was a lot like a cult, but that’s all right. So I know what this feels like, like, oh, this ain’t Kansas anymore. I made a horrible mistake. What is going on? I have no, I’ve signed away all the control of my entire life. What have I done?

Justin: Yeah.

Brent: So when I watch Andy walk into prison, I mean, I don’t fully understand, but I feel like I got like a 30% understanding of that, like, wow.

Justin: Yeah, I mean, Andy’s experience takes on a whole other dimension, even as compared to a military experience, because The military experience as challenging as it is as much as the loss of control is similar uh, it is training for a purpose, right? Whereas here they are completely dehumanized with no purpose other than to just be caged just be punished.

Brent: That is it every day is a punishment. That’s true because the military thing that was temporary the boot camp was for three months and it was a very strict framework in which I did some really impressive growth that I wouldn’t have done without that framework. They force you to eat right, they force you to sleep right, they force you to exercise, and you get in the best shape of your life, which you might not have done if you had an opportunity to watch TV and drink Coke. But they took that way away from you. Then you’re climbing things, you’re facing fears and jumping off of stuff and shooting stuff and blowing stuff up. And you’re like, wow, because of this very strict, stringent framework, I learned what I was capable of. But these guys in prison have an even stricter, stringent-er framework for no good reason. This is your new life. Every day for the rest of your life.

Justin: Yeah.

Brent: Guards are going to mess with you. You’re going to have to avoid the predators. You’re in a scary ocean for the rest of your life.

Justin: And we talk about locus of control. Entering the military, there was an initial yes, where you said, this is what I want to give my life to for this season or for whatever it might be. Whereas for those going to prison, there was no yes. I would say Andy Dufresne’s situation is even more potent in that regard because those who were actually guilty in that prison, they did say yes to committing the crime that got them there. He didn’t even say that yes. So every element of control of his destiny was taken from him. And that’s what puts him in this situation.

Brent: I will point out that in the military, there is that same kind of prison yard kind of thing. It’s like, yeah, my recruiter lied to me. You know, my lawyer screwed me. If you told me the truth, I wouldn’t have been here.

Justin: I wouldn’t have done this.

Brent: They were still trying to blame it on someone else. And that was the thing that comes up with your officers and everyone else is like, you signed the paper. You put yourself here. It’s too late to get out now. Like, do you have to bring that up every day? Like, are you going to be a child every day? Because if you are, I will.

Justin: That’s funny.

Brent: Oh, all right. So, while he’s in here, Andy answers the call of adventure. So after you face the shift, some, after your life changes, you realize that your old ways don’t work and you have to try a new way. And that may be scary because you have this comfort zone that you don’t want to leave. So Andy is on the prison, they’re working on the roof, and he goes up to the captain of the guards. and asks this very provocative question, do you trust your wife? And then the captain’s gonna throw him off the roof. He takes a chance. He’s like, let me offer you my accounting banking services because this could be good for everyone. I mean, it’s a chance, I mean, because he could have just stayed an anonymous prisoner. I mean, they didn’t know his name, but he’s just another part of the crowd. He didn’t have to call himself out. He didn’t have to skyline himself out. And this is another parallel with the military. It’s like, if you’re in the big crowd, it’s hard for anyone to get yelled at. But if you stand up or you open your mouth, then suddenly you made yourself a lightning rod and you better make sure you know what you’re doing.

Justin: Yeah, yeah.

Brent: And so that’s what he did. He almost got thrown off the roof, but he offers his accounting services to the guard. And that chance, that choice to answer that call of adventure changed the whole course of the story.

Justin: Yep. That was probably his first yes in his new life. Because he does start out in prison, feeling that hopelessness for a moment, longing for the life that he lost. And I do feel like the scene that you’re talking about is kind of his first yes. He doesn’t come in saying, hey, I’m going to make the best of this horrible situation. He comes in saying, none of this should have happened to me. All true.

Brent: True.

Justin: And then at that moment, I think he decides, OK, well, wait a minute. Maybe hope is not lost if I would just pay attention to it and say one more yes.

Brent: Yeah, and he offers his services and the benefit, you’ll notice that he does that and he gets beer for his crew that he doesn’t drink. He’s already shown that he’s looking out for other people. His saying yes wasn’t necessarily to improve his circumstances as everyone’s circumstances. He has a very generative sense. He’s like, I’m going to make this place better for everyone. Right from the get go.

Justin: And I wonder if real hope is found in that other centeredness, that generative posture.

Brent: I mean, we have mentioned on the show a lot that as a life of meaning and satisfaction, you have to live for something bigger than yourself, which in your case, you’re a minister and it’s very much part of your job description. But even outside religious senses, just a bigger cause, a charity, or something else. If we can just get out of our self-centeredness, even for a moment, our life satisfaction goes up.

Justin: Yep, I think we shrivel and become all of the things that we struggle with, depression, anxiety, lots of factors, but one of those are, I think, when we become entirely focused on ourselves and not other focused as well.

Brent: Which is a challenge. Our culture kind of specializes in that, advertising in particular. You can be the best, you can be in perfect comfort and everything. And so the, what we’re always saying on the show is like, you have to leave the comfort zone. Perfect comfort might be comfortable, but it’s not a satisfying way to live.

Justin: Right. Not so much that you’re the main character in your story, but you’re being told you’re the only character in your story and you’re not.

Brent: It’s all about you. So, the next phase in the story framework is that you assemble your tribe. And Andy pretty much does this pretty quickly. He has Red, his main guy. And he has Red and Brooks, the librarian. You have Haywood, the country hick guy over there. Andy, what you doing on? And then eventually you’ll even get Tommy, this young kid, this potential protege for Andy, for Andy to mold and be a father figure that he never had the chance to be. But these people are looking out for each other. You know, it’s not, it’s a very much a dog eat dog situation, like circling sharks in prison, but these guys have each other’s back as much as they can. There’s someone that you can confide in, you can unburden your heart. You get practical advice. I’m trying to remember if I’m just imagining it or if it actually happened, but when Andy stood up on the roof, I feel like Red was like pulling, he’s like, sit down, sit down. The spotlight, the eye of Sauron is about to be on you. Sit down. And he’s like, nope, I know what I’m doing. And Red was trying to help him stay in the comfort zone.

Justin: Yeah. Yeah. There’s something to that right out the gate that you see in the film, which is that, so they start with this scene, this very dehumanizing scene of them being hosed down, basically given a number. And then yet when he gets into the general population, he starts to see that communities have formed. There’s these groups of people that are sticking together. And it was interesting the way he found his tribe, where he didn’t go and ask groups of people like, hey, can I be a part of your thing? It’s almost like they found each other. They were like magnetized toward each other, which I think is also a beautiful and rich part of how that happens sometimes if you’re paying attention.

Brent: And I mean, they just, they kind of illustrate Andy as just being a force of hope and peace right off the bat. It’s like, even his first day in the prison yard, cool as a cucumber, looking at rocks on the ground, you know, Red’s the narrator. He’s like, not a care in the world. And you know, and then we realized he’s just kind of wired this way. He’s wired to be kind of emotionally cold. He’s feeling a lot of stuff and may not broadcast it. But still, he becomes this beacon of, I don’t have to panic. I don’t have to be reduced.

Justin: Yes.

Brent: Over and over in this movie, he talks about how people can’t take your humanity away from you if you don’t let them.

Justin: And that posture that Andy had is part of what drew Red, who’s narrating this whole thing, that drew Red to him and saying, hey, I think I want to know this person.

Narrator: This is Full Mental Bracket. – 19:53

Brent: All right, so then the next phase of the hero’s journey is that you face adversity, and there was no shortage of adversity for Andy and the gang. You have sadistic guards, right from like the first day someone gets killed by the guards. It’s like, this ain’t a joke. In case you weren’t paying attention, this is life and death. You know, you find out later that the warden is corrupt. You know, the prison has sexual predators that you’re trying to avoid. You know, as we mentioned, Andy was falsely condemned. He was betrayed at least twice in the story. He’s betrayed by his wife and then later by the warden. Everyone he tries to trust, you know, not everyone, but significant people in his life that he trusts are betrayed. He faces all this adversity.

Justin: Yeah. Yeah. And what he’s told when he first arrives is that your entire existence here is not about hope. It’s not about purpose. It’s just about survival.

Brent: Yes.

Justin: And that’s the posture that everyone has. Keep your head down. Don’t get in trouble. Here, look what happens if you do anything other than that. So it’s just survival. Uh, which is not a sustainable way to live and I think Andy sees that from the start.

Brent: And you know, and we’ll go into this a little bit later but you right from Red pulling on his sleeve you kind of see it’s later fleshed out in the movie that Andy’s view and Red’s view are two opposed diametrically opposed views of life. They have two different philosophies Andy is full of hope Red is always hope is dangerous when you’re in prison. Don’t get your hopes up manage your expectations, expect the worst, and you’ll never be disappointed. And even from that first rooftop thing, you see it, it gets more, they say it explicitly later in the movie, but there’s like, from the beginning, it’s like, are you Red or are you Andy? It’s always asking you this question. This is one of the thematic elements of the story.

Justin: Yeah. Yeah, which is a powerful thing when you look at their initial postures, and then, like you said, we’ll talk about it, but the way in which Red’s posture and attitude changes, as does Andy’s in its own way. It’s part of their journey.

Brent: The next phase in the hero’s journey is transformation. As you bravely face your adversities, as you have your try-fail cycles, as you try things and it doesn’t work, and you don’t give up and you keep trying, you keep evolving your tools, you keep learning new lessons, you are transformed, you grow into a version of yourself that can solve the problems that the previous version could not solve. And so this is interesting in this story, because normally in a main dramatic story, we talk about the main protagonist and his huge character arc. And Andy does grow, but he has kind of a shallow character arc. He’s so quiet and so calm, you don’t really see it. And you find out at the end, he’s right from the beginning. He had a plan right from the beginning. He was a mastermind right from the beginning. He didn’t give up right from the beginning. But he does grow some, but not as much as other stories. And this is kind of, in technical writing terms and screenwriting terms, he’s a catalyst character. He inspires change in others more than you see him change. He inspires transformation in everyone around him. A good catalyst character would be Buddy the Elf in the movie Elf. He doesn’t really grow up, he never really matures much, but just his joy infects everyone around him. And Andy’s peace and hope infects everyone around him.

Justin: Yeah.

Brent: Even if he doesn’t level up all that much.

Justin: If that kind, that concept is, uh, is inspiring across the board. If you’re a sports fan, some, some of our, our favorite athletes are the ones who make the players around them better. Right. And that’s actually what causes them to be considered the greatest of all time. They thrive because they help the people around them.

Brent: Yeah, you wouldn’t really consider him a coach as much like the team captain, right? It’s like on he’s on the floor with them. Yeah, but still providing leadership. Yeah, that’s exactly right You get to end of this movie and you’re I realized and he was the leader I didn’t really never they didn’t have a vote. He never yelled anyone down. You didn’t realize until he was gone Yeah, how much everyone relied on his leadership.

Justin: Yep. Yep

Brent: So, and then the final element of the hero’s journey is the legacy that you build. And then right from the beginning, Andy’s building a legacy. He’s trying to get his library built. He’s investing in the people. He invests in Tommy when Tommy comes. Once again, like a son he never had. He teaches him to help him pass his GED. Everything that he’s striving for is not a personal treasure. He’s not looking for a bag of gold or even to be exonerated, at least not immediately. Everything he’s building is to help other people.

Justin: And I think the thing about him in this film is that he’s not legacy shopping, which I think might be different than even the athlete thing that we talked about a moment ago, where he’s just pouring into Tommy and pouring into other people because something about it feels right when he thinks about his purpose and maybe why he’s even there. And so that’s actually very meaningful when it’s just coming out of just a desire for other people’s good.

Brent: Yeah. Red narrates that everyone in prison has to find a hobby. There’s just too much time on your hands. And unlike everybody else’s, Andy’s hobby is helping other people. That’s how he passes his time.

Justin: Yeah. That’s powerful.

Brent: And then, as we get to the end of the movie, we see that Andy has left a very specific legacy, specifically for Red. There’s a little, a whispered hint, a box waiting for him, and a very specific postcard. And it’s like, I have specific hope for you, Red, that you can make it.

Justin: Yep.

Brent: Which as we find out, Red really needed it because he’s been institutionalized. 50 years in prison, he didn’t know how to live.

Justin: Yeah. Yeah, and even just the idea of going and finding that box and the whole thing, like just giving him something, giving Red something to hope for and reach for. I think Andy had a sense that every human needs that, right? They need a purpose. They need something that they’re reaching for, that they believe is a better future that lies in front of them.

Brent: Because we showed Brooks, the librarian, has a cautionary tale. Brooks was released, he goes to this halfway house. And as I was watching this segment, I was watching how much it paralleled his introduction to prison. They bust him out, he gets a new house, he gets new clothes. It’s a reverse of the prison thing. He’s told where to work, where to go, where to live, and he can’t handle it, and he kills himself. And then when they release Red, Red gets Brooks’s job. He gets the same room. He gets the same job. You know, he’s thinking suicidal. He looks up, Brooks was here. And like, they used Brooks to show what can happen if you’re not ready.

Justin: The ways in which our minds can be reprogrammed to think that oppression is freedom.

Brent: Yes.

Justin: And that’s why when he’s introduced to true freedom, he thinks that the oppressive environment that he was in is actually freedom because of decades of his brain being rewired just that way. And so that’s a real danger worth paying attention to, to be so disoriented as to get those things confused.

Brent: We talk on the show about a dysfunctional comfort zone, just because that something feels safe to you doesn’t mean it’s a good place to be. It could be an area of abuse or dysfunction, or you’re just stubbornly refusing to grow, but it seems less scary than the uncertainty of going out and answering the call.

Justin: Yeah, that’s right.

Brent: And so that they really visualize that, you know, that Brooks was afraid, get out of jail, Red wanted to get out, but then he was also afraid. And it was like, the walls were kind of like our protection. The walls weren’t holding them in, they were protecting them from the chaos of the outside world.

Justin: Yeah.

Brent: Cause everything was so regimented. They were used to everything being regimented and controlled and they didn’t know how to handle it.

Justin: Yeah, that’s right.

Brent: So, Justin, when you were rewatching this movie, what parts stood out for you? What parts have you always loved or what parts do you think, what makes you love this?

Justin: That’s a tough question because there are just so many powerful moments throughout the course of this film Um, so I, I will just pick one. Okay, I wouldn’t say it’s my favorite because there’s so many but uh one that stands out to me is this opera scene where uh effectively Andy breaks into the office and plays this opera music throughout the entire prison yard and And obviously not something he’s supposed to do. And so he plays this music and everyone is doing their various maybe job for the day they’re working. And the opera music starts playing and Andy sits back and he puts his hands his head in his hands and he’s just taking it in. But then they show the scene of all of the prisoners in the yard and everyone stops and they’re looking out into the sky and they’re just taking it in. And I feel like for a moment, what that helped do was rewire their brains, undo the wiring that says, this oppressed life of darkness is as good as it gets. And it gave them a taste of freedom, a taste of what their minds and their hearts were actually created for and built for. And so that just feels like such a, like an isolated incident just in a moment where light starts to break through the darkness, which I think is a theme that makes its way throughout this movie. But that’s like a really pointed moment where that happens. So that’s one of my favorites.

Brent: Yeah, and Andy and Red have an argument after that. And Red is like, you stuck your head out and you took a chance. And Andy’s like, they can’t take hope from us. It was the easiest time I ever served. My two weeks in solitary, I had to pay for that. It was great. It was well worth it. And Red is just shaking his head. It’s like, no, no, no, no. You can’t get your hopes up. You have to keep your hopes down. And they explicitly state that right after that moment, after Randy takes a chance to help partially Redeem these people, give them a little taste of hope.

Justin: Yep.

Brent: And Red’s like, no, you got to stop doing that. And Andy’s like, I am all about doing that.

Justin: that conversation that happens after that scene is really important, because I feel like it’s where the tension between hope and hopelessness really comes to a head, through conversations like that. So which one of those things is actually true? Hope is dangerous, or we need and are built for hope? And that’s what the film, I think, unfolds.

Brent: I think so. I think that’s one of the themes of the film, and that’s the whole point of that conversation, is to make us think about it as we watch it being dramatized.

Justin: Yeah, it’s good.

Narrator: This is Full Mental Bracket. – 30:37

Brent: So I think one interesting point, I think that we can’t really skip over, is that when Tommy comes. So Tommy comes at an hour and 30 minutes into this movie. This would be wrapping up for the end of a normal movie.

Justin: Yeah, right.

Brent: But this has another hour. So Andy has made his peace with prison. He’s like, this is as good as it’s going to get. And then Tommy comes in. He coaches Tommy to get his GED. Tommy becomes a son he never had. And then, spoiler, oh, surprise, I’ve got this information that can prove that you’re innocent. Then things changed for Andy, because Andy was to a certain extent, keeping his hopes down. There was no hope for him. So he didn’t, I have no problem cooking the books for the warden. I have no problem with this because where am I ever going to go? But then he gets excited. He’s like, I could get out. I could get out. And then, then he becomes a threat to the warden. He’s like, yeah, if you ever get out, this is going to get ugly. And so, you know, there’s a big fight and then, and then the warden has Tommy killed. And that’s while, and he finds out about that while he’s in two months of solitary. Now I looked it up and by international standard, I think my modern standards, 15 to 20 days is the longest you’re supposed to be able to put anyone in solitary confinement. And they put him in there for 60 days.

Justin: Yeah.

Brent: And he finds out that Tommy that he invested in was dead. He gets out, he said, we’re done. He’s like, I’ll burn your library to the ground. So all the generative stuff that he gave, all the things that he did for everyone else are suddenly being used as leverage against him. This is his test. Every character has to hit the wall and see if they’re going to get back up again. This whole growth mindset thing. It’s like, so you did all these good things. and now they’re being used against you. It’s like, maybe you read us right, because if you hadn’t been so good to everyone, they wouldn’t have this leverage on you. If you had just said, screw everybody else, and just selfishly you, you might’ve been able to squeak out of this. But because you form so many attachments to so many people, they have leverage on you.

Justin: Yeah, yeah, man. I really feel like that whole set of occurrences seems to highlight the extent to which hope is a long work. And so what I mean by that is that it’s not just one choice to say Yes, I’m gonna have hope because what happens in that part of the movie is the warden is trying to crush Andy’s hope, right? So he had hope of being exonerated crushes that by having tommy killed, and then throws him in solitary for this long time He’s just trying to crush his spirit crush his hope and get back compliance, which is what he wanted from him. And it looks like at that point, to us, the viewer, he was successful, right? It looks like he’s crushed. It looks like Andy might, the way he’s talking, it sounds like he’s gonna take his own life. However, there was long work of hope that he had been doing in pouring into other people, and then the long work of his escape plan that he had been doing for years. And what sustained him in the end, and the way the movie ends, is a result of that long work of hope over years, not one decision. I think if it was just one decision of, yes, I’m going to help Tommy, or yes, I’m going to be hopeful, it would be much more easily crushed. But it wasn’t able to be because it was a long work.

Brent: And I like how the filmmakers do this kind of like this Red herring thing to help you really, because like, and there’s two of them. Like the first one is the, you know, Andy is like, Andy gets out from the warden and he’s like, I need to get some rope. And he gets his last minute this come to Jesus talk with Red. It’s like, I love, there’s this city in Mexico and the Pacific Ocean and Red’s like, oh, the Pacific is cold and scary. And only later do you realize that they’re actually talking about hope. The Pacific Ocean is hope. It’s great. No, it’s scary and horrible. And he’s like, oh, he got this length of rope. And it’s like, I’m never going to see you again, Red, goodbye. And you’re like, oh no, they broke Andy. And he’d been, that was the night of his escape.

Justin: Yeah.

Brent: But they do it again after Red gets out. Cause Red is institutionalized. He doesn’t know what to do. He’s looking, he’s like, I need to go back to prison. They look at the store, you look at the gun, I’m going to get the gun and go back to prison. And then they slide over to the compass. or I’m going to buy the compass and follow Andy’s map.

Justin: Such a good scene.

Brent: And then you cut and like, he’s out in the country, you follow the map. You’re like, oh yeah, he did it. And they did that twice. They psych you out twice in the same film. Like he’s going to go down. Like no, Hope won again. How is this even possible?

Justin: Yep. And that choice, like I said, moving towards hope, it’s a hundred decisions. And I love that scene that you just described with the gun and the compass because it puts that choice so clearly in front of him.

Brent: And that’s the thing, you know, I’ve never made a, well, I’ve helped make a movie, but I never actually made my own movie. But the thing is, you have to dramatize it. How do you make this visible on the screen? It’s not like a podcast where we’re talking about heady ideas. It’s like, you have to actually illustrate it. How can you show the choice between fate and helplessness and hope on the screen? And you have to find things that represent that.

Justin: And do it in a way that’s not hokey, which is what this film does.

Brent: A flannel graph. This is hope, and this is hopelessness.

Justin: Exactly.

Brent: Like, no, no, this is great.

Justin: Right. It’s perfect. Give me goosebumps thinking about it. It’s so good.

Brent: Oh, man. And so I want to point out a couple of interesting things that I noticed. So we have to point out, you know, our shared faith and stuff. We have to point out that the warden was a religious hypocrite. He had these verses and things on his wall all while doing the horrible things. And a great scene is he gave Andy a Bible and he snatched that Bible back when they were inspecting him, his cell, and he’s like, salvation is found within. And Andy says, yes, I agree. Because he had carved out a page and his pickaxe was inside the Bible. My salvation is within. Congratulations, warden, thank you for it. And as cool as a cucumber, never panics, never sweats.

Justin: Yeah.

Brent: You know, they go on. You know, the final scene, the final time that the warden and Andy see each other. I want to bring this up because I researched this. So the, so. This is my former musician brain kicking in. So he talks to the warden, the warden says, shine my shoes, get my things washed, and as he walks away, the warden whistles. Did you notice the warden was whistling a tune? And I was sitting there and I paused the movie and I listened to it, I listened to it, I listened to it, and raised by my father who was addicted to hymns, I could tell you he was whistling, A Mighty Fortress Is Our God.

Justin: No way.

Brent: So listen to, I Googled this, I don’t have this memorized, I’m not my dad, but listen to verse three of A Mighty Fortress Is Our God. Though this world with devils filled should threaten to undo us, we will not fear, for God has willed His truth to triumph through us.” Now listen to this, the prince of darkness grim, we tremble not for him. His rage we can endure, for lo, his doom is sure. One little word shall fell him. As Andy was preparing to take the books to the newspaper and seal the doom of the warden. The warden was the devil in the song that he was whistling.

Justin: That’s crazy.

Brent: I saw that. I had like little shivers down my back. I’m like, these guys were deep. These guys went for a deep cut.

Justin: Oh my goodness.

Brent: I’m like, even as the, and that’s the thing, even as the bad guy was whistling his song, he was kind of prophesying his own downfall.

Justin: Yeah. Yeah.

Brent: And he was too dumb to see it. Yes. He was too self-absorbed to see it. Yes. He had no focus outside of himself and his own goodness.

Justin: This right here is why I love films.

Brent: That’s amazing.

Justin: I mean, come on.

Brent: Because he had to whistle something. So they was like, we’ll make it good.

Justin: Yeah.

Brent: We’ll make it good.

Justin: It’s the contrast between the warden and Andy is so, so profound, right? So Andy comes into this dark space. His life and his time there is marked by hope, bringing about hope in others, by meekness, by integrity, in such a stark contrast to the warden, who is completely marked by power and oppression and moral decay. And I think the ways in which he uses the Bible and kind of masks that moral decay in what he would even describe as righteousness is horrifying, but it also makes the reality of who Andy is that much clearer.

Brent: And Andy’s actually a far greater force for righteousness in his quiet way than this Bible-thumping guy who has all the right words, but he’s corrupt in his heart.

Justin: Isn’t that interesting?

Brent: Yeah. It’s almost like you need to be judged on your actions rather than talking a big talk.

Justin: Yeah, imagine that.

Brent: It’s a little like that was in the Bible somewhere or something, I don’t know. And so, another interesting point is that after Andy escapes and everything comes out the bag, the sirens close in on the warden, and we flash over to the embroidery on the wall that apparently his wife embroidered, judgment cometh soon. As sirens are closing in on the warden, we look at his wife’s embroidery about how the wrath of God is coming to set everything straight. And the warden realizes it’s talking about him.

Justin: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that’s, again, another one of these moments where, in a non-hokey way, these filmmakers are helping us see, what is this movie actually about?

Narrator: This is Full Mental Bracket. – 40:06

Brent: A really good part that I wanna talk about is that after Red gets out, and we talked about Red got out of jail and he got the compass and he follows the map to find this certain hole in the wall. All right, I wasn’t gonna mention this, but I’m gonna mention this. The scene, there’s this rock wall and there’s this big tree and there’s Morgan Freeman walking up it. And I’m like, this kind of looks like Robin Hood because they did this scene with Robin Hood with Kevin Costner and this is rock wall and this big tree and the kids in the tree.

Justin: Oh, yeah.

Brent: And I’m like, did they recycle that scene? Like, it feels like that was pretty cool, but I thought it was cool. But anyway, he goes and he digs it all up and then there’s a letter to Red. So what I like about this scene is that when he opens the box, there’s this whole note and then there’s one sentence he says, Andy says, writes to Red, maybe you’re ready to come a little farther. Like you’ve come so far, maybe you’re ready to come a little farther. Now, I thought at the time, if I had written that note, I probably would have said, are you ready to go a little farther? But that phrasing is particular. He’s like, I want you to come to me. I’m not sending you someplace away from me that I haven’t gone. I want you to come to me because I’m already there.

Justin: Yeah.

Brent: He’s like beckoning him.

Justin: Right.

Brent: And it reminded me of this idea that leaders tell a better story, and they invite people into their story. And it’s like, Andy was the leader this whole time. And he’s even yet, even still, he’s telling a better story and inviting Red into that story.

Justin: Yeah. And the place that he was inviting him to was a place of hope and freedom. And I think by inviting him to come, it’s language that’s saying, this place of hope and freedom is actually where you belong. So you’re not going somewhere you don’t belong. That’s why we say, hey, he’s going to prison, right? He’s not coming to prison because he doesn’t belong there. He’s going to a place you don’t belong. You come to a place you do belong.

Brent: You come home.

Justin: You come home.

Brent: Yeah, I like that. I like that. And then so he’s not sending Red, he’s inviting him. And so then Red gets on the bus as he’s getting closer to the ocean, you watch him on the bus, he rolls down the window, he can smell the ocean scent. And then Red says, he refutes his previous thing. He’s like, hope is a good thing, maybe the best thing and no good thing ever dies.

Justin: And what a journey cuz yeah, you could hold that up to the exact opposite thing that he said earlier in the movie, an hour and a half earlier, but still.

Brent: But I mean it took him a whole life to learn it but he learned he learned this lesson And I like that last scene cuz like you see Red walk up and there’s you know, there’s no dialogue. You can just imagine. They’re getting to know each other. And then they zoom out and they just look at this ocean of the Pacific Hope, the Pacific Hope Ocean, as they zoom, as they pull the camera way back away to the satellite view. And you’re like, wow, that was great.

Justin: Yes, yes.

Brent: And hope wins.

Justin: Hope wins. And you see the way Andy was a person in Red’s life, who, he wasn’t the source of that hope, but he did point him to that hope. He did reveal that hope and allow for that light to break into the darkness.

Brent: So we’ve come to a point where I would like to introduce you to this hot take that I had on the story, right?

Justin: Ok. Let’s hear it.

Brent: So I’m kind of a word nerd and a vocab guy. And so, and I like to title things. I’ve titled bands and books and things and stuff. So I was really working on this, the Shawshank Redemption, right? So the Shawshank is the prison. And I was like, the redemption. I was like, so psychologist, Dan McAdams talks about a redemption story, which is any sort of rags to riches. It doesn’t have to be like a salvation specific, but it’s the opposite of a contamination story where everything was going great. Andy had a contamination story. Everything was going great and then he came in contact with a contamination and suddenly life sucked. And then by McAdams would say, if somehow you learned from that and you got better, then that’s a redemption story. I’m like, okay, so Andy learned something redeemed. And I thought about it and I thought about it and I thought about it and I’m like, here’s the hot take. The redemption in Shawshank Redemption is Red’s redemption. Red is redeemed from his hopeless state and learns a new sense of hope.

Justin: That’s good, that’s good. Say more, how do you see that?

Brent: So, I mean, you could say that just so his life was, his story was changed and his trajectory changed, which is enough to make McAdams happy, but you could even go on a deep, like almost like a Christian mythos about this, because Andy is unguilty, sinless man, comes into this, enters into this darkness, inspires these people with hope, Then he’s gone, and everywhere he went, he changed people’s trajectories.

Justin: Yeah.

Brent: And he wasn’t guilty. He just came in and changed everybody and then left and everybody moved on with their story. It made him kind of like in hindsight, especially from our viewpoint, more of like a Christlike figure.

Justin: Yeah, there is something to that, because he was also inviting them into that journey from hopelessness to hope, and inviting them into a space that’s marked by hope and freedom that Red was created for. I love that and I think Red’s story really does bear that out in a really profound way as far as redemption goes.

Brent: And I like, I don’t really care for like the C.S. Lewis version of like heavy, heavy allegory, right? But I mean, we thought Andy was dead. There was a whole grave-like hole in a tomb and he crawled into it and he crawled back out. And you could, if you have a C.S. Lewis mindset, you could really, and I’ve got friends who are, and I love you guys, but you could really go down this rabbit hole and nail in every detail. But I just like the, I like the emotional energy of it, the thrust of it.

Justin: And yeah, I think allegory is a little more powerful when it’s a little imperfect and there’s layers to it, you know, not a fan of the matrix, you know?

Brent: Yes, yes.

Justin: Yeah, so lots talked about that, right? But it’s so many of the elements of it.

Brent: You leave it open-ended.

Justin: Right, exactly. And so, yeah, I think there’s a huge Redemptive story in Red’s journey. And then I also see Redemption as it relates to the place, the actual prison itself, to Shawshank. Because of the ways in which, when Andy gets there, we get a picture painted of what that place is, and it is profoundly marked by darkness, right? It is just hopelessness, it is keep your head down, don’t hope, and Red puts language to that. And what happens over the course of the film and what Andy helps bring about is a Redemption of that place. If you look at the difference between when he arrives to kind of immediately before the things happen with Tommy and he makes his way out, the place is marked by hope. The library is thriving. I can’t remember who it is walking with the book cart and like smiling.

Brent: He’s changed it all.

Justin: He’s changed it all.

Brent: Transformed it.

Justin: He’s made this dark place light. Um, and it just seems like there was Redemption there. And then even when sort of the evil elements like the warden and things like that get pushed out, uh, I can only imagine that that environment continued to be a place of light. I will say, even after Andy was gone, the other characters who were still in prison.

Brent: Still talking about it, talking about it. Remember that time Andy did this? Remember that time Andy did that?

Justin: Full of hope and joy.

Brent: This generative legacy that he left behind. After he was gone, his library’s still there, the people he changed were still there, they were still changed. Like, okay, Andy’s gone, let’s go back to being hopeless now. Shifts over, back to being grumpy. Like, no, everything had changed in his wake.

Justin: So many redemptive plot lines throughout this film.

Brent: And so, and we’re kind of easing into our takeaways, but even as we watch that, I’m like, is that me? Am I going against the, is it possible for me to go against the flow that much? To to change people’s trajectories. Historically that has not been me but as I older and think more about legacy and wanting to leave something behind Yeah, i’m starting to reevaluate things.

Justin: I I feel like by Andy just being a person of hope those who were near him

Brent: Yeah.

Justin: Somehow absorb some of that.

Brent: It wasn’t like a specific strategy. Correct. His only specific strategy is like, I’m going to keep writing letters until they send us books. And I’m going to whittle on my wall a little bit every day.

Justin: Yes, exactly. Other than that, even the way he helped Tommy, which was maybe the most intentional thing that he did with a person, even that, his posture towards Tommy was, you can do this, but I’m just here to help you. You know, and it’s just that, that hopefulness that was just leaking out of him and onto the people around him.

Brent: And I think that’s another good connection. Another good connection is that the incremental progress, we talked about that in our marriage episodes and stuff that it’s not a big one and done here. I’ve done this dramatic gesture. I’ve won you forever. It’s just more about. picking the hole in the wall a little bit every day, investing in people every day, writing another letter to get the books every day. That was what his protagonist mindset of just putting his nose to the grindstone and just not giving up.

Justin: Yes, the long work of not giving up.

Brent: Being the protagonist and just continuing to persevere.

Justin: Yes. I love that.

Brent: The continued perseverance in the right direction is much more effective than dramatic dashes and explosions and, look what I’m doing! And then you get exhausted and then you don’t continue.

Justin: Yep. And more sustainable.

Brent: Absolutely.

Justin: Where even in the face of challenge, like Andy experienced at the end of the movie, the hardest challenge, but it was that long work of hope that prevailed and got him through.

Brent: So this brings us to our takeaways. I want you to think about some situations in your life where you might feel trapped and oppressed. Where in that situation might be that first crack of hope that perhaps you’re overlooking? And more specifically, where might you be that first crack of hope? Is there a situation that you’re in that you think sucks? And maybe, just maybe, you’re supposed to be the Andy. In what situation in your life do you see yourself as Red? Where you’re afraid to hope, where you have this external locus and you don’t believe that you can actually change anything or anything can change. And then I want you to think about this situation, ask yourself, what would Andy do in that situation? And then finally, as we saw in this movie, Andy was transformed, even as he was helping to transform others. In our personal growth journey, we talk a lot about growing, but where in your journey are you giving back and what generative legacy are you building? Or as Justin would say, where are you pulling back the curtain so that the light can get in?

Justin: That’s exactly right. I just, I believe so much that hope and a better future awaits us all. And so what we do for each other is help the other see it when they can’t. And you help me see it when I can’t, and I help you see it when you can’t.

Brent: As we say on the show, nobody who’s serious about achieving their goals travels alone.

Justin: That’s right.

Brent: And this is for this among many, many reasons to be able to encourage each other and help each other get back up and keep incrementally improving in the right direction. That’s good. So thank you for joining us for yet another episode. We will be back with you soon. Thank you and goodbye.

Announcer: Full Mental Bracket podcast hosted by Brent Diggs. Logo by Colby Osborne. Music by Steven Adkinsson. Learn more at FullMentalBracket.com. This is the Full Mental Bracket.

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